It was included in the instructions...
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| Setup Numbers http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41887 |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Setup Numbers |
Just wondering what you use for high, medium and low action on a steel string. I started with the Cumpiano numbers for 'normal action' but have found them on the high side. What do you use? |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
I go .090 bass .070 treble as my standard. People can ask for adjustments from there... |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Meddling... if my math is right that would be just under 6/64" on the bass and 4.5/64 on the trebble. That sounds like a pretty good medium action |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Joe Beaver wrote: Meddling... if my math is right that would be just under 6/64" on the bass and 4.5/64 on the trebble. That sounds like a pretty good medium action Joe ...I am a huge advocate of the imperial system, even though my country has adopted the metric system, but pleeeeeze ... I cannot stomach " 4.5/64 " Express these measurements in thousandths of an inch ...just like meddlingfool did ...you know it makes sense ... |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
I just use it because that's what is on the Stewmac action guage that I use. Available in imperial too. But I find thousandths easier to grasp at such small divisions... |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
meddlingfool wrote: I find thousandths easier to grasp at such small divisions... Exactly. That is why guitar string diameters are measured in thousandths of an inch , and not in 1/128", or 1/256". The same thing applies when measuring action on a guitar. Bryan Kimsey is the one (and only ) man who boldly expresses all his parameters in thousandths of an inch. When I see action measurements expressed in 64ths ...I kind of sigh ... |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
I have a very basic set up.... a little 6" General ruler with 1/64" graduations, reading glasses and a bright light. For me 'kind of between the two lines is close enough to call it 1/2 of a 64. Not exact by any stretch of the imagination close enough for a dummy like me. |
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| Author: | ChuckB [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
On a spec guitar, I shoot for .092" E and .065" e. Chuck |
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
what's wrong with 9/128ths? |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
I think most repair folks and road tech's seem to use the half 64th as a standard, usually wrote as follows. 4.5-3, which is my typical low action and 6-4.5 would be my high action. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Brian, Thank you. I rest my case Whisperer, whats wrong with 9/128? well... nothing except maybe it implies I can read accurately to a 1/128”, which sadly, I can’t. Not with my little general ruler anyway Chuck, I think that is mighty close to Brian, Meddling, and what my good friend Hesh just sent me. Great minds seem to think alike. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
NECK RELIEF Fret string at the 3rd and 12th fret .004” - .006” of relief above the 7th fret for light pickers, jazz, and medium gauge strings .008” - .012” of relief above the 7th fret for hard strummers or extra-light strings STRING HEIGHT AT NUT Fret string at 3rd fret Look for 1/64” (.015”) clearance above 1st fret STRING HEIGHT ABOVE 12TH FRET LOW ACTION: Treble: 3/64” Bass: 5/64” MEDIUM ACTION: Treble: 4/64” Bass: 6/64” HIGH ACTION: Treble: 5/64” Bass: 7/64” LOW ACTION: Treble: .045” Bass: .075” MEDIUM ACTION: Treble: .060” Bass: .090” HIGH ACTION: Treble: .075” Bass: .105” |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
It was included in the instructions...
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
James, good stuff !!! Thanks for posting Todd 1000ths are good, if you have the gear to measure it. |
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| Author: | mhammond [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
I kinda like millimeters  Sorry.... |
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| Author: | James Ringelspaugh [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
For me 64ths are easy to read on my best small ruler so that's what I think in terms of. 5 - 3.5 at the 12th fret is generally a very good low setup for light gauge PB strings from 6th to 1st... I'll take the 6th down to 4.5 with a medium gauge set depending on playing style. That's just a general rule though... the individual guitar's neck relief and the individual player's style really determine how low you should go, and those two should depend on each other. The guy who pulls strings with his fingers perpendicular from the top is very different from the guy who feather picks with a plectrum. Understanding and then dialing in a good setup is a pretty sophisticated thing... action numbers can be a good thing to shoot for but context is everything. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Ringo, yep! Ruler works fine for me. If you are shooting for 1/1000 of an inch accuracy for action setup you are working way to hard |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
C'mon guys, let's get real about some of these numbers! James Orr wrote: STRING HEIGHT AT NUT Fret string at 3rd fret Look for 1/64” (.015”) clearance above 1st fret... LOW ACTION: Treble: .045” Bass: .075” ... Why so high at the first fret? For every other fret trio, you'd put a fret rocker across and expect it not to rock - every fret trio, all over the neck. Here you'd have a 0.015" gap over fret 1 if you used a fret rocker between the nut and fret 2. So fretting at 3, clearance over 1 should be veeeerrry close to zero. I leave just a puffteenth to allow for a bit of nut wear. So take the nut height down to zero, and that takes the action at 12 down by ~0.0075" which leaves you with an action at 12 of 0.0385", or ~1mm for the rest of the world. On an acoustic guitar?? Medium/high action at 12, first string, acoustic guitar (lights, 12-53) is 2mm. So with action at 1mm you're reducing the dynamic range by a factor of 4 (power is proportional to string amplitude squared). As a bare fingernails player, I'd struggle to pluck with a string amplitude of less than 1mm and why sacrifice so much dynamic range? James Ringelspaugh wrote: ... action numbers can be a good thing to shoot for but context is everything. Exactly. The trick is to make a 2mm set up (1st sting, fret 12) feel like a 1mm set up, which, as Ringo suggests, means a lot more than just action numbers. It's about string break angles (both ends), straightness of string pulls, length of string "overhang", fretboard curvature, string spacing, neck profile, etc. etc. etc. You know when you've got it right when a player asks "Are these 10s?" when, in fact, they're 12s. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 7:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Todd Stock wrote: Between the SM setup gauge and the dial nut action gauge, I stay in thousandths for pretty much everything, although still do carpentry, cabinetmaking and other rougher stuff in fractions. Also figure that i work to thousandths on most stuff, so no reason to not shoot for those tolerances on setups. Just wanted to point out that the SM set up gauge is marked in increments of .010" which is roughly equal to one half of a 64 th. So it would appear accuracy is about the same and the rest is semantics. |
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| Author: | Stuart Gort [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Subtle. |
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| Author: | Pmaj7 [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
I shoot for .070-.090 too. The Stewmac gage is great. The decimal measurements staggered horizontally are very easy to read. I was born into fractions. Unsatisfied and idealistic, I experimented with metric. Then, decimals saved me. |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Trevor Gore wrote: C'mon guys, let's get real about some of these numbers! James Orr wrote: STRING HEIGHT AT NUT Fret string at 3rd fret Look for 1/64” (.015”) clearance above 1st fret... LOW ACTION: Treble: .045” Bass: .075” ... Why so high at the first fret? For every other fret trio, you'd put a fret rocker across and expect it not to rock - every fret trio, all over the neck. Here you'd have a 0.015" gap over fret 1 if you used a fret rocker between the nut and fret 2. So fretting at 3, clearance over 1 should be veeeerrry close to zero. I leave just a puffteenth to allow for a bit of nut wear. So take the nut height down to zero, and that takes the action at 12 down by ~0.0075" which leaves you with an action at 12 of 0.0385", or ~1mm for the rest of the world. On an acoustic guitar?? Medium/high action at 12, first string, acoustic guitar (lights, 12-53) is 2mm. So with action at 1mm you're reducing the dynamic range by a factor of 4 (power is proportional to string amplitude squared). As a bare fingernails player, I'd struggle to pluck with a string amplitude of less than 1mm and why sacrifice so much dynamic range? Trevor, those are my notes from Kent Everett's setup DVD. They feel pretty good to me. Are you saying a good medium high action above the 12th fret with light gauge strings would be twice as high? |
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| Author: | James Orr [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Edit. |
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| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
I went to a guitar makers festival recently and found that most of the instruments on display were set up far too low for my taste. Some were really difficult to play fingerstyle without buzz on the bass strings and the trebles sounding choked. Unfortunately many use a 12th fret string height as the measure of an instruments quality, but having string clearance is just a physical necessity, however well levelled the frets are. Don't sacrifice sound and dynamics for numbers, play hard in a big room and hear what it sounds like. |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Setup Numbers |
Trevor Gore wrote: So take the nut height down to zero or very near to it. The trick is to make a 2mm set up (1st sting, fret 12) feel like a 1mm set up, which, as Ringo suggests, means a lot more than just action numbers. It's about string break angles (both ends), straightness of string pulls, length of string "overhang", fretboard curvature, string spacing, neck profile, etc. etc. etc. You know when you've got it right when a player asks "Are these 10s?" when, in fact, they're 12s. Words to live by I would say. |
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